Friday, January 25, 2013

Further explanation and another object lesson.

sT left this comment on my entry from the other day just now.



Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Let's do a thing.":




Sizism is all about controlling our bodies, our presentation to the world. You would have to perfectly match society's expectations and you'd probably STILL be blamed. Sizism is most definitely intersectional. The ways in which it affects people is varied and this should be respected.



Doctors
My disability has been blamed on my thinness by doctors. People (including medical staff) have told me I'm anorexic and threatened to institutionalize me. I've been hounded by doctors to "exercise and eat right." When doctors messed up an operation and almost killed me, they blamed my pain afterwards on lack of exercise and refused to treat me for a week, during which I almost died. I had to receive emergency surgery, which I only got because a different doctor was on call in the ER that night.


Parents
In addition to doing some of the things above, they refused to take me to the hospital on a regular basis because the results of my disability were caused by "laziness."



School
It is unknown if this was just ableism or not, but every school I've ever been to has refused to allow me days off or to skip PE even with a doctor's note.


Pro-Fat Movements
"REAL women have curves." Implying that skinny ones aren't real women.
"Nothing feels as good as skinny tastes." A reverse of a popular quote (replace feels and tastes). The image was of a fat person EATING a skinny one.


Please, stop invalidating very real problems. Let's discuss how sizism affects both sides, and how it's intersectional and again, you could be perfect and still get blamed. Otherwise, we're playing right into the kyriarchy's hands.



-sT
Okay.

Let me address this point by point.

First of all nowhere did I say that one experience of sizeism is less than any other.

Nowhere.

From my response to their comment:
The topic is, a clarification about the differences between interpersonal body shaming and institutional body shaming.
Here we go, let us have some intersectionality for a minute.

What I was discussing was not the day to day or life to life personal experiences of Thin People as individuals.

That means, I wasn't talking about your experience perambulating around in an apparently from how you worded things here, very thin body.

Let's get a few other things straight again.

As I said then, and I will say again.

Body Shaming is bad.

People being jerks to you or shaming you for your body and only on the basis of how your body appears is bullshit, it sucks and people should stop doing that.
Again quoting myself directly:

People being jerks to you or shaming you for your body and only on the basis of how your body appears is bullshit, it sucks and people should stop doing that.
 One more time for the cheap seats:

People being jerks to you or shaming you for your body and only on the basis of how your body appears is bullshit, it sucks and people should stop doing that.
 Let me put it another way:

Having people mistreat you because of how your body is shaped, how much you weigh etc is bad for everyone.

In case it wasn't abundantly clear from my frequent use of the word fat, and all of the fat things located hereabouts, let's be clear.

Hold on.

This person returned with this:



Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Let's do a thing.":




I'm sorry, how is doctors refusing me treatment not institutional? How is the constant hate that flows from so called "body-positive" movements interpersonal?



This is why I never try to talk to people like you. You don't care how many people stand up and say, "Here's how I was discriminated against." You just care that you're the ~super special oppressed ones~ and everyone else's problems are individual, unconnected incidents, trufax!



Goodday,
sT
This is my response:

Again you missed the point entirely and you're being incredibly disrespectful in my space.



Again where did I invalidate your treatment personally? Where did I ever say that nothing bad ever happens to thin people?



Where did I say that sT has never had any institutional problems regarding their body ever?



Where?



In my explanation of the differences between things on a micro personal (as in your personal life) level, where did I do any of these things?



I don't know if you're trolling or as I mentioned in this entry taking this example/explanation personally but you are really not understanding what I am doing here.



I actually do care which is why I made the effort to break down some differences in the personal and the political. If you can't understand that, as I said in my previous comment, I am not the droids you are looking for. If my level of intersectionality and my use of both the personal and political is beyond you, bye.
Okay.

As happens often here is the thing sT.

In this space, in what I do here there I do not try and talk about experiences I have not had. On both a personal and political level I think that is a bad plan.

Let me be clear again.

That post was not about the personal private life of a very thin person in ill health or yes, being discriminated against.

It was about making clear to some people (I imagine like yourself) what I am talking about when I talk about institutionalized discrimination versus personal discrimination.

Do you notice how I did not say that one is more important than the other?

Nor did I say that one means more than the other.

They are intersected but not the same.

Need that again?

Oppression don't happen in a vacuum, nor are they only personal nor are they strictly institutional. These things intersect.

One of the things I do here (I'm assuming you aren't a regular reader) is that because I am aware that my readership is fairly diverse in terms of where they are in in understanding body issues, I like to put things in a context that other people who are not fat lil ole me, might understand.

I'm actually very good at it.

Thus, I used the device of using the kind of institutional fat bias I and lots of other fat folks talk about, and put a thin person in that place. A person who is not fat may well understand on a deeper level if I put it in terms that match their own personal experience.

Now again, let me reiterate to you personally.

That explanation was not about you personally sT whomever you are.

It is awful that you've experienced discrimination, I don't know you, I don't know your story thus I was not discussing it as an issue of discrimination experienced by you.

Again, it was not about you personally.

It was about, giving a broader understanding to people who have done things like:


  1. Asked me to explain what is different about someone calling me a fat bitch and going untreated for an ear infection because I am fat.
  2. Asked me personally what kind of institutional things I believe are rooted in fat bias, have done.
  3. I have new readers who are not fat people and are new to any kind of body acceptance and I want them to be up to speed on the jargon and situations I talk about.
  4. This is a Fat Persons Blog. Therefor, the Fat Blogger named Shannon does not speak from experiences she does not have.
Etc.

The rest of you folks.

Okay look.

I will make it very simple.

Personal things that happen to us as in things like:

  1. Discrimination for whatever reason.
  2. People are assholes to us on the street.
  3. Etc etc.
Those are all bad things.

It is equally terrible that someone moo'ed at me today as it is that someone may have called someone skinny a bony ass. 

EQUALLY TERRIBLE.

It is equally terrible that on an institutional level, I can't get my allergies checked out without being told to lose weight as it is that sT has been misdiagnosed/untreated because of their weight/disability.

The difference here is that it is not common for thin people to experience this.

The things I was talking about don't in usual times happen.

Generally speaking, you don't see news like this about thin people. In general terms, it just doesn't happen.

This is an issue where a thin persons body politic issues diverge from those of a fat person.

Am I saying now that the bad institutional things that happen to thin people matter less?

No I am not.

Different is neither superior nor inferior it is just different.

This is the point where in a fat centric space, you thin sT need to show a big of restraint and either learn or flex your understanding intersectionality muscles.

Not all experiences bad or good are the same. That is not bad, it is not a pissing contest, it is not the oppression Olympics (which you didn't say but your comments have that flavor).  It is not negating or invalidating to anyone's experience to acknowledge that experiences are different.

Talking about and acknowledging differing experiences does not equal invalidation of your personal experience.

It really doesn't.

If you feel like it does, you have some things to deal with that have nothing to do with me. 

Also again, for you sT and the couple of other people who expressed similar sentiments I am not the droids you are looking for.

Let me make it clear again.

This blog is written from the perspective of a Black Queer Fat Person.

Thus when I talk about my personal experiences that is where I am coming from.

I am not a thin person, I have been but my experience was honestly not great nor was it healthy or usual so because it is a painful thing for me to use as a lens, I don't on a regular basis.

Does this mean I hate thin people?

No.

Do I think my fat ass problems are more important than your thin ass problems?

No.

Do I say that any of these things are directly comparable in a binary fashion?

Nope.

If that is your take away, you are taking away wrong.

All right.

That's it.

Homo Out.











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2 comments:

Anonymous said...

You need to direct this person to the following links:

http://thisisthinprivilege.tumblr.com/
http://thisisthinprivilege.tumblr.com/faq#thinshaming
http://thisisthinprivilege.tumblr.com/faq

Though it seems to me they aren't interested at all in learning. They just want to throw a pity poor me party.

Also, the way ST is using intersectional...that word does not mean what you think it means.

Tempest Nightingale LeTrope said...

Well, for me the way you said it was perfectly clear the first time. Either Anonymous has an agenda, she is a troll, or she is feeling so put upon that she can't see the forest for the trees.
At any rate, your blog is from a fat person's perspective. It doesn't mean that you hate thin people or people of any size, surely. But it is from your perspective. I wonder what it is that she expects you to change about that. I don't go to spaces written by thin people (usually persons who have dealt with anorexia) and expect them to write about what it is like to be a fat person. That would be ludicrous, since this is not their experience. I usually comment about our shared experiences with sizeism, albeit from different sides of the coin, and eating disorders.

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